Talk:Shen/@comment-24971427-20180919013338/@comment-28977071-20180919083656
Imo the term "offensive item" is a bit unclear. I personally distinguish between "fully offensive items", "semi-offensive(/semi-defensive) items" and "fully defensive items" in detail. My assumption is that you were referring to the first two of these. In such case your item-brewing approach could be quite similar to mine. I put only a single full offense item on bruisers, cuz with 2-3 it's already "fighters" for me, but if you counted semi-offensives in, that should make our approaches cca. equal. One should bear in mind that, disregarding synergies, one fully offensive with one fully defensive item are roughly equivalent to two semi-offensive items.. cuz you get one whole "measure" of both offense and defense per two item slots in total either way. Therefore, if we were to talk about only a single fully offensive item on a bruiser, there should be a good reason to separate it from the rest (a reason why it isn't substituable for two semi-defensive items, combined with one of full defensives). That reason should imo be the synergy, the only one factor disregarded in the optimization above. Now which of fully offensive items offer a standalone synergy with a generic unspecied bruiser, without need of a combo with other item? Imo this property should be best demonstrating itself by the fact of any such item being a great rushable mid-game powerspike item. Consequently, such an item is a standalone combo by itself. You've prolly already answered these questions by yourself, but here are my personal answers: * for }} bruisers: and * for }} bruisers: and I believe is a bit underestimated ( it's my fav }} bruisers' replacement for ). Same goes for and . The first pair focuses more on DPS while the other on mini-burst (usually enough to take down one squishy carry). Hence I'd consider only one fully offensive item on }} bruiser , either or (either DPS or mini-burst). The scales might be slightly in favor of as the other item wastes a bit of stats, however, it offers more mobility which is great for bruisers. The last }} argument is the reason why I'd consider with great caution an option to pick items such as , or even on an }} champ like . They already put you into big disadvantage in terms of }} inefficiency. However, there are exceptions to the rule: If I were to face 4-5 AA-reliant opponents as the only tanky champ on our team, picking on 'd be a no-brainer for me (ideally asap as teamfights start but obviously not too early during the laning phase). On ARAM, I'd even rush it. The rest of your items all sound situationally fine, but just according to certain circumstances. Again, I wouldn't try to force a big rigid three-item core on a bruiser. I tend to build bigger item cores only on carries (i.e. APC or ADC) cuz dealing dmg is their job no. 1, and a dmg core is the one least (but yet still) reliant on circumstances. Big dmg dealing core requires a lot of synergies and }} and naturally exhausts more item slots. But that's it, not the case of bruisers imo. Carries use bigger simple rigid cores and require a player to excel with skillful mechanics (reflexes and decision-making on the fly). Bulks, on the other hand, aren't that mechanics-heavy, but rely more on strategical and tactical play (itemization included). Hence they must utilize a more dynamic core imo. Bulk should be the one that carries the carries, with all the team utility, control and peel. With all this in mind, my itemization for }} bruiser 'd be something along these lines: 1st item (full offense): or (is DPS or mini-burst more needed?) 2nd-5th item (semi-def or full def): * ? Is enemy actually that tanky? * ? Do I have good APC on my team and enemy is }} heavy? Similar to but maybe enemy is quite squishy? (team "penetration" debuff) * ? Do I need stronger waveclear and split-push power in this game? Can I stay in the middle of enemy for a longer time or do they ignore me? * ? Similar to but maybe we have mostly bursty APCs? (works better with bursters) * ? Does enemy have lots of healing? (this can be a game-changer, no trolling; }} proc has synergy with , and ) * ? Too many AA-reliant opponents? (same as with or , it's important to check if someone else isn't already aiming for the same debuff) * ? Is enemy too slippery? Or too slow? Can I beat'em in the mobility game? * ? Can I afford to weaken mid-game? Do we need a stronger late-game with the item fully stacked? And can we even get there in the first place? (as said earlier I find this to be a very big risk, but it could be situationally/quite rarely viable) * ? Does our team so badly need (and can it really utilize) more soft CC so all that wasted }} won't actually be "wasted"? * ? Maybe we just can't beat'em in teamfights by composition? Maybe a powerful double split-push can also split their efforts? * ? Do they have lotsa spam-casters? * ? Clearly I can't carry the late-game but do we have a nicely fed carry on our team? Maybe it's the support time? Let's snowball the snowballer even more? etc. .. 6th boots: * ? Lots of hard CC? (I find CC resistances to be extremely powerful on bulks, and I like to stack lots, real lots, of'em.. hello , n ) * ? Lots of mostly s? * ? Vs }} team? * maybe some other MS non-boots? Late game is about effectivity, not efficiency, and a fat item that still grants some mobility, can help with utilization of redundant }}. But better be really worth it, boots are a great stuff.. All in all, I wouldn't build a large static core in this case. My personal fav }} bruiser custom set (albeit a bit outdated) has sections cca. like this: * start (starter items, cheapo early stuff like boots, potions, trinkets, wards, ..) * mid game (unfinished items for stuff below, ergo "crafting" components, big focus on those that chain into multiple different items you want) * core 1st ( and , end-game elixir) * armor 2nd-6th ( }}(+ }}) stuff, plus ) * hybrid 2nd-6th ( }} or }}+ }} stuff, plus ) * MR 2nd-6th ( }}(+ }}) stuff, plus ) ..then in each particular game I usually fill slots with what I consider to be fitting the circumstances. Also, I don't make my item sets for specific champs, that'd make for hundreds of thousands of sets, completely unmaintainable with each patch. My set above is for }} bruisers and it's my responsibility that using it on means that I should be careful to not that eagerly build . However, I sometimes tend to split off separate sets for }}less, melee or ranged unique alternatives. E.g. }}less }} bruiser in this case. EDIT: Srez for a bit longer post than anticipated, got a bit carried away.. (holiday time from work for me :p)